Cardinal Wilton Gregory, the archbishop of Washington, was interviewed on May 4, 2023 about the 50th anniversary of his ordination to the priesthood by Mark Zimmermann, the editor of the Catholic Standard newspaper and website of The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington, and Rafael Roncal, the editor of the archdiocese’s Spanish-language newspaper and website, El Pregonero. The following is the text of that interview.
Mark Zimmermann: “Cardinal Gregory, what does this milestone of marking the 50th anniversary of your ordination to the priesthood mean to you?”
Cardinal Gregory: “To be perfectly honest, I’m still kind of reflecting on it. It means first of all that God has been very good to me, allowing me to be a priest and then sustaining me for 50 years in serving the Church as a priest. So I’m blessed to have been given the opportunity and blessed to have been supported, sustained and allowed to continue being the Lord’s priest.”
Roots of his vocation
Mark Zimmermann: “What inspired you to seek the priesthood and what sustained you on that path to your ordination?
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, I think most people know that I was a kid growing up on the South Side of Chicago, growing up at a time when racial change was happening very rapidly in many, many neighborhoods. And in that environment, I was allowed, invited to transfer from the public school system into the Catholic schools, the Catholic School of Saint Carthage, which itself was going through rapid racial change. But I was fortunate enough also to have had a wonderful pastor, Monsignor John Hayes, and a great sister, (Adrian Dominican) Sister Marie Philip Doyle, who was the principal. And the two of them, obviously without my knowing, had agreed that the parish would be opening and welcoming to African American students, and not every parish had that kind of leadership, nor did every school have that kind of welcome.
“But I was fortunate. St. Carthage did, and I and my two sisters were enrolled in St. Carthage in the fall of 1958. And those two individuals, along with the other sisters and the other priests that I met at the parish, were really models for me. I was 11 years old. You know, most 11 year olds, the fortunate ones are filled with possibilities. So on Monday, you’re going to be a fireman, On Tuesday, you’re going to be an astronaut and as you’re going through those formative years, you’re looking at possibilities, and you’re looking for role models. And I was fortunate in having those role models at St. Carthage. I was not Catholic, so I didn't come from a Catholic background that said priests do this and sisters do that and Catholics (do that).
“But I was from a single parent home with a wonderful mother and grandmother who always asked, demanded really, that we dream big dreams. And it was in that environment with the folks at the parish and the kind of the encouragement from home that I decided, ‘I think I ought to be a priest,’ not knowing what a priest was, except those priests. In other words, the decision was, I want to be like them. And fortunately, the two of them (including Father Gerry Weber, another priest at the parish) encouraged me. And in a sense, I still want to be like them when I grow up. So I’m a work in progress.”
Mark Zimmermann: “What do you remember most about the day when you were ordained a priest in May 1973?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, obviously, I was, you know, stunned. I had witnessed ordinations before, both as a seminarian, before getting to the major seminary. But certainly during my years at Mundelein (Seminary for the Archdiocese of Chicago), I had seen other classes of seminarians be ordained to the priesthood. And so I had those memories of what it was like for them. Now it was my turn, and there are so many things that happened in the ceremony that I remember, but there are many others that have just kind of folded themselves into a moment of joy.”
Growing up during Civil Rights Movement
Rafael Roncal: “Each generation has a theme, an issue that distinguishes them from each other, what do you see as the theme or your generation, and what can you tell us about your own life experiences?”
Cardinal Gregory: “I grew up in the in the mid-‘50s, and the great challenges that were going on in the United States at that time involve the Civil Rights Movement. I can remember as a young man going to the wake of Emmett Till, my grandmother took me to the wake. That was a pivotal moment in the Civil Rights Movement. And certainly, you know, just a startling moment for the African American community of Chicago, because he was a kid from Chicago that had been murdered in Mississippi.
“So I remember the sense of hope and determination that the Civil Rights Movement engendered. I also grew up in the era of political assassinations. I was a junior in high school, I remember I was sitting in algebra class when the announcement was made on the public address system that John Kennedy had been shot. I was a seminarian in the theology program when Dr. King was assassinated, when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated, (and) the Vietnam War was going on. So there were a lot of social problems that were being played out in the public arena at that time. And it shaped me, as it shaped people from my generation. The peace movement, those were the kind of social energies that were a part of my world as I was growing up.”
Rafael Roncal: “As a witness (to that), what lessons can you share with us?
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, I guess it’s a lesson that I hope would be captured by the young people growing up in today's world, that you don’t lose heart. Those moments of tragedy that I just described, of the killing of Emmett Till, the assassination of those public figures, they didn’t break the spirit of the people of the time. They saddened us deeply, but they didn’t break our spirits. And I hope that’s also the case of the young people in today’s world, which is so divided. We’re living in a world where the political divisions are just ripe. And unfortunately, the divisions within our Church are also very much present in the public arena. My prayer, my hope is that our young people don’t lose hope, that they don’t just throw up their hands and say all is lost, (that) there’s no possibility of improvement, because there is. And that possibility of improvement resides with the young people themselves, that they work for a better world.”
Rafael Roncal: “We live in uncertain times. There have been radical changes due to the pandemic, that may take years to absorb these consequences. If we consider the times when you grew up, what can you tell us about what you are seeing and hearing now?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, you’re right, the pandemic has changed us in so many different levels. We have confronted, hopefully and overcome, this dreaded disease and this biological intrusion. But its results are, we aren’t the people we were five years ago. Our work situations are different and will be different. Travel is different and will continue to be different. The way we look upon science. We depend upon science. We cannot let science, however, drive our moral vision. We have to use it, respect it, understand it, but realize its limits as well.”
A cardinal’s example
Mark Zimmermann: “You have mentioned what a mentor Chicago Cardinal Joseph Bernardin was to you. What did you learn from his priestly example?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, first of all, he never lost the common touch. He was always a priest, approachable, (and) never took himself too seriously. He was always one who could kid with me, and I could kid with him. It was a relationship that was comfortable enough so that I could poke fun at him, and he could poke fun at me.
“The cross that I wore when I was named a cardinal was designed by Father Clarence Rivers, a priest of Cincinnati, an artist, a musician. And Clarence was also an operator. Clarence designed that cross and then had it made and sold it to the archbishops who had African American auxiliaries.
“So one day I was at a meeting with the cardinal, and after the meeting was over, he said, ‘Wilton, come into my office, I have something for you.’ I thought it was a document or a letter or something that he wanted me to do. And he gave me this cross and he said, ‘You know, Clarence,’ – he (Cardinal Bernardin) had been the archbishop of Cincinnati, so he knew Clarence personally – he said, ‘Clarence designed this. I think it’s beautiful. And he sold it to the archbishops who had an African American auxiliary at the time.’ And he gave it to me, and he says, ‘Well you know, caro, the Italian word for dear friend, you know caro, I was afraid that Clarence would tell you that I didn’t buy it for you.’ So, I mean, he just was so down to earth.
“He never let his office, the titles, his positions separate him from his people. He used them to draw his people closer to himself.”
‘People are the same’
Mark Zimmermann: “After you were ordained into the priesthood, 10 years later, you became an auxiliary bishop of Chicago, later the bishop of Belleville and archbishop of Atlanta, now the cardinal archbishop of Washington. How was your priesthood enriched by those different experiences, because you served very different communities in each place?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, one of the things that I discovered was that people are the same. They may be racially different. They may be economically different. They may come from small town, rural communities or large urban communities. But there's a sameness that is really the bedrock of our humanity. We’re looking for the same things. We’re looking, first of all, to be happy, and to encounter that which is divine within us, at the invitation of the one who calls us to Himself. So whatever our accent is, whether we speak with a Southern drawl or have a Boston accent or we speak (with an accent from) New York, we are the same. And that's what’s been supportive of my priesthood. I’m here in Washington. I have found wonderful people, absolutely wonderful people, very supportive.
“My priests, I absolutely love my priests. They have been so good, so welcoming, so supportive, so understanding. We don’t always agree. But the bond that unites me to the Washington priests is a precious legacy. And, you know, I'm here four years. I already feel very much like a Washington priest, because I am.
“So what has allowed me to continue with joy and hope in my priesthood? It’s discovering the fact that God’s people reflect the same background, dreams, hopes, fears. We are also a flawed people, none of us are perfect. From the lifelong Catholics to the newest Catholics, from the clerical Catholics to the religious Catholics to the lay Catholics, we are a people who share the same heritage of hope (and) life because we are God's children.”
The gift and responsibility of being the first
Rafael Roncal: “…You were the first African American archbishop of Washington and the first African American cardinal, what is your reflection about this?
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, you know, in one sense, whenever I have been privileged to be the first, I was the first African American auxiliary bishop of Chicago, the first African American bishop of Belleville, etc., I have to ground and root myself in this awareness, (that) I have been given a great gift, a great responsibility, but it’s really the fruit of a lot of hard work and faith and integrity and devotion of the people who preceded me.
“There was a need, pressure, an opportunity for an African American auxiliary bishop in Chicago. I was fortunate enough to be the candidate. There was a need for the first African American archbishop of Washington, the first African American cardinal. I was glad to have been standing on the sideline when Pope Francis said, ‘Hey, you, come over here. I want you to do this with me.’ And I really feel privileged. It’s nothing I deserve. It's something that I have been given.”
Our immigrant heritage
Rafael Roncal: “There is something related to our own community. There is no dialogue, no leaders who talk about immigration as a national problem, and that we should treat everyone who arrives at the border as human. What do you think is the solution?
Cardinal Gregory: “First of all, anyone who understands the history of the Catholic Church in the United States knows that this Church is an immigrant Church (and) has been from day one, that it is a Church that has been built on the lives and the culture, the language and the traditions and the ethnic communities that make us the Church in the United States. And to treat the new immigrant community seeking to become a part of this Church, a part of this nation, with disrespect, is really to forget our heritage. Many of the people in public life who may speak ill of the immigrant communities primarily those coming from the South, Central, Latin America, often forget that grandma and great grandpa and (great) grandma came from Ireland, Poland, Italy, Germany, France. They forget their own heritage, and they forget the struggles that their own ancestors had to face because they didn’t speak English or because they were themselves Catholic. in a non-Catholic environment. They have to remember, we have to remind them of that, and also remind them of the dignity that those prior immigrants had, which is the same dignity as the contemporary immigrants have. We can’t forget our heritage. If we do, we diminish ourselves tremendously.”
Rafael Roncal: “How can we integrate in a way that people’s humanity prevails?
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, I think what we have to do is invite people to consider what are their dreams? What are their dreams for their kids? What do they want for their children? It’s the same that the immigrant community wants for its children – security, health, proper food, proper housing, the possibility of a better future. No one comes to understand themselves without looking into their own hearts and seeing what their hearts invite them to long for.”
Facing the abuse crisis
Mark Zimmermann: “How did your priesthood prepare you to face the abuse crisis as the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and also face that issue as a as a bishop and archbishop in the dioceses that you’ve led?”
Cardinal Gregory: “I have been fortunate in all of my priesthood to have the opportunity to deal with young people, from (when I was) a brand new priest – in those days 50 years ago, the new associate was presumed to be the priest that would care for the young people. And in the parishes that I served as a deacon at Mary, Seat of Wisdom in Park Ridge, (Illinois) and as a newly ordained priest in Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Glenview, I met wonderful young kids, and I never forgot that their parents entrusted me with their greatest treasure, which was their kids, and they trusted that I would care for their kids and treat their kids with respect and love. And so it’s that affection that I have for kids. I love kids. I often say, and I guess I’ll say it for the public record, my best time as a bishop is spent with young people, second degree with their parents, but first degree with them. And so having had the experience of working with young people, (and understanding) the trust of parents, I was absolutely enraged to know of clerics who had violated the trust that parents had placed in them as their local pastors, their local priests.
“That still works up inside of me, just an anger, that wonderful trust that means so much to me was violated by some of my fellow priests and clerics and religious. It has so changed the atmosphere of priests and faithful that it’s going to be long and hard to try to restore it so that people once again have the confidence to trust that their pastors will cherish and love and protect and care for their kids.
“I don’t have any children of my own, but I’ve talked to enough parents and heard enough parents to know they’re their greatest treasure. And if you share your greatest treasure with someone who then violates that, it directly destroys a relationship and it turns the world upside down. That’s the background of what I felt I had to do in Belleville, in the Conference of Bishops and here in Washington. Young people are the jewel in the lives of their parents. And if the parents let you care for that jewel, don’t destroy it, don’t harm it.”
‘I’m still Wilton the priest’
Mark Zimmermann: “And I want to ask you about the Mass. In May 1973, you stood at the altar for the first time and celebrated Mass, and you continued to do that as a priest, as an auxiliary bishop, a bishop, an archbishop, and now as a cardinal archbishop. What does it mean to you to stand at the altar and celebrate Mass? And what has it meant to you to bring the sacraments to people over these 50 years?
Cardinal Gregory: “When I was a freshman at the high school seminary in Quigley, 13 years old, I remember asking this question of my religion teacher who was then John Sweeney, and I said, at 13, ‘Father, is God receiving glory now from the Masses that I will celebrate when I’m a priest?’ In other words. I was probing that issue of God’s presence and His ability to be honored by all of the Masses that have been celebrated over the years from that first sacrificial offering of Christ.
“And I come back to that question even now as I stand at the altar and offer Mass, that God is being praised by the prayer and the gesture and the ritual that I offer at the altar right now. You know, I guess it was a pretty heady question for a 13 year old to ask, but it was in the context of the Eucharist transcending time and being that energy, that source of worship, that source of praise that God sees constantly before him, no matter if the Mass was offered in 650 or 2023.”
Mark Zimmermann: “Are there some ways that Cardinal Gregory, the priest, still lives his life the way Father Gregory, the priest, began 50 years ago?”
Cardinal Gregory: “I hope so… Pope Francis, in his conversations with me, he reminds me that I have special garb that I wear and I have special titles that belong to the office. But I’m still Wilton the priest. I’m still Wilton Gregory, and I can’t allow the honors that come my way, the formal attire that I put on, I hope I don’t allow that to rob me of my humanity. I can’t see myself as Cardinal Gregory. I have to see myself as Wilton Gregory, to see myself as I am, a human being with flaws and all kinds of character traits, cardinal robes don’t remove that. And they can’t remove my relationship with my people.”
Young people can change things
Rafael Roncal: “You’ve always been transparent talking about racism and its impact on our economy and culture… What can you say to young people about this?”
Cardinal Gregory: “I think young people, and this is one of the great gifts of young people, they’re filled with possibilities. They’re filled with hopes. I hope, I pray that the challenges that they face, whether it be people of color and they face racism, or the immigrant community, (if) they face rejection, or the affluent community, (if) they risk seeing the world as a prize that they already possess, I hope they don’t lose that sense of adventure, that they can change things and that there are challenges, to be sure, but there are also triumphs that they can accomplish.
“So whether you’re a kid from an inner city community, and I know that’s the case of so many of our young people, they come from an impoverished background. They may feel defeated before they are adults. Or they come as immigrants, and they’re standing at the border and they experience rejection and hostility, they (may) lose the hope that there is a tomorrow. Or whether they’re affluent, young kids who have been given everything by loving parents and generous parents, and they lose the ability to see that they are related to their peers who may not be as fortunate as they are, and that they have a responsibility from the benefits that they enjoy, to reach out to those who lack all the gifts that they have been given.”
Encountering people as a priest
Rafael Roncal: “In your 50 years of priesthood, is there something you treasure that you will always remember?”
Cardinal Gregory: “It would be the people that I have encountered as a priest. I grew up in a lower middle class community in Englewood on the South Side of Chicago. It wasn’t as violent as the Englewood that now exists, but there were gangs. I then experienced the seminary and a learning community. I was exposed to white classmates and friends that I had never encountered before. And there was some wonderful friendships that were bonded in those years of formation and education. And then my experience as a priest in Chicago and (as a) deacon with affluent communities, and then in the various dioceses that I have served. As I said before, I have been able to find goodness and possibility in every one of those situations.
“And for 50 years, the Lord has directed me where He wanted me to be. And I hope I have responded generously and with faith.”
The biggest challenge
Rafael Roncal: “What do you think is the biggest challenge we are facing right now?”
Cardinal Gregory: “I think the biggest challenge that we face now and hopefully can respond to is the divisiveness in our society and in our Church. We have to heal this brokenness, whether it be socially, whether it be politically, whether it be ecclesiologically, we have to search for a way of calling the Church, calling our nation, calling our communities to a deeper sense of unity. We’ve lost that. That's the challenge I think that we face today.”
