(Cardinal Wilton Gregory was interviewed on Jan. 15, 2025 by Mark Zimmermann, editor of the Catholic Standard newspaper and website of The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington, and by Rafael Roncal, the editor of the archdiocese’s Spanish-language newspaper and website, El Pregonero. On Jan. 6, Pope Francis announced that he had accepted the resignation of Cardinal Gregory as the archbishop of Washington and had appointed Cardinal Robert McElroy of San Diego to succeed him in that role. Cardinal Gregory, who had served as the archbishop of Washington since 2019, had submitted his resignation as required by Church law when he turned 75 on Dec. 7, 2022. Until Cardinal McElroy is installed as the new archbishop of Washington on March 11, Cardinal Gregory will serve as the apostolic administrator for the Archdiocese of Washington. After his successor is installed, Cardinal Gregory will be an archbishop emeritus of Washington. The following is the text of the interview with Cardinal Gregory.)
Meaningful moments in Washington
Mark Zimmermann: “Since your installation is the archbishop of Washington in 2019, what accomplishments in the Archdiocese of Washington are most meaningful to you?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Since arriving in 2019 the most moving experiences that I’ve had is getting to know the people of the archdiocese, visiting their parishes, getting to know them in casual and occasionally in very formal settings. But also getting to know their kids. I hope that it’s been clear and obvious that I really value my time spent with our young people. It gives me hope. It gives me joy. It allows me to see both the future as well as the present energy of this local Church.”
Rafael Roncal: “What are some major social or political issues you actively addressed during your tenure?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, one of the social issues that was already underway, but I hope I’ve added to its continuation, is the care for the unmarked graves of those who were enslaved.
“That process began before I arrived. But it’s also taken new energy under the careful guidance of Bishop (Roy) Campbell (auxiliary bishop of Washington), Father (Michael) Russo (the pastor of Sacred Heart Parish in Bowie), the Society of Jesus, the people themselves who are the descendants. That’s an important movement, because it allows us as a Church to accept things that happened in the past. It allows us, as a Church, to look toward the future and to reconcile with history and to see the work that still needs to be done, but to take ownership, to take ownership of events that have been defining events in this local Church, but also in the Church in the United States.”
The first African American cardinal
Mark Zimmermann: “What was going through your mind as Pope Francis put the red hat on your head in November 2020? You made history as the first African American cardinal. What does that distinction mean to you? And did you feel any added pressure or responsibility in being that first?”
Cardinal Gregory: “When the Holy Father placed the cardinal’s biretta on my head the thoughts that filled my heart were thoughts of my own family, my mom and dad struggling to provide a good education for me and my two sisters. My wonderful grandmother, Etta Mae Duncan, who was so pivotal in my upbringing. I’ve said this before, she was a domestic. She worked as a housekeeper to provide the opportunity for her grandchildren to get a good education.
“I thought about that. I thought about the sacrifices that people have made in my own life, but also the sacrifices that African American Catholics, Catholics of color, have offered in their fidelity to our Church, their love for our Church, their faithfulness to the Catholic community that they love and have loved all of their lives.
“So I thought about history. How did I get here? How did this moment happen to me? And how grateful I am to have reaped the harvest of faith that was made possible by people in my own life. But people that I have never known, but were faithful Catholics who have fallen in love with the Catholic Church and that I just so happened to be the one to reap the benefit of their love and their devotion.”
Mark Zimmermann: “And did you feel any added pressure or responsibility in being that first?”
Cardinal Gregory: “You know, to be perfectly honest, I’ve had to be the first on many different occasions. The first African American bishop to serve in the Archdiocese of Chicago. The first African American bishop to be president of the Conference of Bishops. The first African American bishop here as the archbishop of Washington.
“So I have had a number of opportunities to be the first. And in accepting those opportunities, I also want to make sure that I realize that whatever legacy I leave will be available for the second, for the third, for the fifth, who will, in God’s own time and with God’s own grace, will inherit the responsibilities that I’ve been fortunate enough to have.”
Rafael Roncal: “Following the question of Mark. I’m not sure how to properly express this. Your presence represents something bigger than us… I remember when President Obama was elected, everybody was asking their opinion about this. When they asked Maya Angelou, she said, ‘Can you imagine those Black kids playing on the grounds of the White House?’ That’s it, you know, it’s something beyond the color… Just to show the humanity in all of us… When I see you here, it means, you have, I think, the privilege to represent that… What reflection (do you have about that)?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, as I’ve said in the past, even as a part of this opportunity to dialogue with you, I find great joy in dealing with our young people, because as I look in their eyes and see the smiles on their faces, and hear their giggles and laughs, I feel comfortable that tomorrow will be better. Tomorrow has possibilities. Tomorrow will offer hope for another generation.
“I hope that my presence in the Archdiocese of Washington, as I was present in Atlanta and in Belleville and in Chicago, I hope that I provided an opportunity for people not just in a sense of pride, but in a sense of opportunity, that the young people can see a world that they can fill with their own dreams and with their own possibilities. I hope that my ministry has lifted the horizons for a lot of our young people, to see as possibilities that generations of young people in the past never even envisioned.”
The abuse crisis and healing
Mark Zimmermann: “At your introductory press conference as the new archbishop of Washington in 2019, you described it as a moment fraught with challenges throughout our entire Catholic Church certainly, but nowhere more so than in this local faith community. How did you try to bring healing to the Archdiocese of Washington, drawing on what you learned from addressing the abuse crisis as the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and as the bishop of Belleville, and as archbishop of Atlanta?”
Cardinal Gregory: “That introductory interview, that introductory moment, allowed me to reveal my heart, that we have to go forward. We cannot simply remain mired in the past. We have to learn from the past. We have to respect the past. But we also have to realize that the past is not the future.
“What happened yesterday is not the only thing that will determine tomorrow. And I’ve tried to do that in ways that would allow people to say, ‘He understands the hurt, the pain, the embarrassment, the anger, the frustration. He understands those, but he wants us not to be limited by what happened yesterday.’
“I have to apologize, as I do, and as I have to, for the egregious behavior of clerics – obviously, one of the cardinal archbishops of Washington himself. I have to acknowledge that. I have to say, ‘This is horrendous. It should never have happened.’ It embarrassed us. It brought us great shame. But we’re more than that. One man cannot destroy the entire Church.
“Knowing that we all have our weaknesses, some more egregious than others, but I believe that the scriptural passage that the Lord Jesus said to Peter still remains: ‘The gates of hell shall not destroy this Church of mine,’ that He’s with us, even in our darkest and most shameful moments.”
The current state of the Church
Rafael Roncal: “What are your thoughts on the current state of the Church compared to when you were first ordained?”
Cardinal Gregory: “When I was ordained in 1973 and I’ve used these two examples publicly before, we were still living in an age of (the movie) ‘Going my Way,’ that the Catholic priesthood was this paragon of virtue, of holiness, of possibility.
“But now we have to deal with the fallout that came from Boston and so many other places, where it’s no longer ‘Going my Way,’ but (the film) ‘Doubt.’ Now, when I was ordained, I inherited the good reputation of countless ministers before me. Now I think young priests have to realize that they have to earn the trust of the people.
“And it’s an uphill battle for many young priests. But if they are honest, if they are genuine, if they are faithful, if they are prayerful, if they are hopeful, the people will soon find those qualities attractive.”
The pandemic and the Church’s response
Mark Zimmermann: “In 2020 and into 2021, you faced leading your faith community in the Archdiocese of Washington through the COVID-19 pandemic. How would you summarize your approach to that crisis, and in retrospect, do you have any regrets on the aftermath of the pandemic on our Catholic community? You’ve mentioned Mass attendance, trying to invite people back. What was your approach to that sort of unprecedented challenge?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, my approach was not what I would do with hindsight. We had never lived through a moment like this, where our ability to be together was so drastically limited. We were afraid to be together. And so I would say, my approach now would be to say as, Pope Saint John Paul II often said, ‘Be not afraid.’ But fear really was a dominant emotion for many people.
“We didn’t know where the disease originated. We didn’t know how it was transmitted. We didn’t know how to approach a resolution. We were filled with doubt and fear. I wish now, four years later, I could have been a better messenger of not being afraid.
“Now that we have endured that awful moment, we need to prepare ourselves. How will we handle the next crisis? How will we respond to the next disastrous situation that might occur at any moment? We need each other. That was, of all of the things that I have thought about with the pandemic, it heightened our ability or our realization that we cannot be Church alone.
“We need one another, and it means that we have to find ways to be together. We’re still trying to invite people back. There’s still people who are hesitant to be in crowds or to be with their neighbors, with their fellow parishioners. We need to find ways to assure them that, without being together, we miss a terribly important dimension of what it means to be a Catholic.
“Obviously, the electronic media provided an opportunity for people to watch Mass, to participate in televised religious ceremonies, and that was a good thing, but it’s no substitution for the sacramental reality of sitting next to your neighbor, hearing the voices of the choir, being actively engaged in the worship life of our Church.
“Christ did not found a Church on media. He founded a Church for men and women to be together, and in the midst of that gathering, where two or three have come together, (Jesus said) ‘I’m in their midst.’”
Challenges like climate change and economic inequality
Rafael Roncal: “How do you believe that the Church can be there (in addressing) contemporary social issues, like climate change or economic inequality?”
Cardinal Gregory: “I think Pope Francis has given us a pretty good pathway towards realizing the responsibility that we have for this planet that God has given us, (and for) the environment. And he’s challenged us to be more concerned about caring for nature, preserving the good things that this Earth has given, not just to exploit it for its monetary value, but to preserve it for the next generation.
“We’re still in an environment where some people are denying the impact of climate change or the other dimensions of our world that affect all of us, whether we live in the developed world, or the world that is not the developed world, but living with an understanding or an environment that doesn’t have all of the advantages that we have.
“Pope Francis is taking the lead on that, but I want to give a nod to Pope Benedict. He’s the one that put cells on the top of the some of the Vatican buildings. He didn’t give the emphasis that Pope Francis had, but he pointed that direction of finding ways to make better and more effective use of the sun and its energy. So it’s not something that Pope Francis introduced in a void. but he certainly has made it a primary concern for all of us.”
Leading in a time of division and polarization
Mark Zimmermann: “What approach did you take in serving as the archbishop of Washington, the leader of the Catholic community in the nation’s capital and the surrounding Maryland counties, at a time of increased polarization and division, not only in our country, but in our Church as well?”
Cardinal Gregory: “It’s an ongoing battle, because I think there are voices that are still quite powerful that highlight the differences that distinguish us. We don’t see everything through the same lens. However, if we deny the humanity of those who have different opinions or different perspectives, to the extent that we can’t even see the possibility that they may have a point, that creates such a terrible moment because it divides the human race into those who have wisdom and those who lack understanding.
“We cannot get caught up, we shouldn’t get caught up, in seeing our environment as something that can only be controlled by one opinion. The divisions that separate us are real, but the possibilities of us being one people, one Church, one nation, are even more important than the divisions that divide us.”
What retirement will mean
Rafael Roncal: “Do you still feel a call to serve in some capacity, even in retirement?”
Cardinal Gregory: “I certainly hope so. I’m going to follow the example of our senior priests, both here in Washington and Atlanta and Belleville and Chicago. Our senior clergy continue to give a great example of generosity and devotion to the mission of the Church, and I certainly hope to follow that good example. I certainly hope to be a Sunday supply priest. I certainly hope to be engaged in the worship life of our parishes that would invite me to participate in their parish life. We couldn’t do it without our senior priests. We simply could not manage without their generous participation.”
Mark Zimmermann: “To follow up on Rafael’s question on the lighter side, (are there) things that you hope to do for fun? I remember when my father retired as a construction worker, he said, ‘I’m going to stay up past 10 o’clock at night.’ And he read books. Are there things that you hope to do when you don’t have the administrative responsibilities and worries?”
Cardinal Gregory: “I hope to spend more time with my friends. My two priest buddies that have been here on visits, and been a part of my life since we were young priests in Rome where we met, I hope to spend more time with them.
“I hope to be able to visit our schools more often. One of the best stories that I experienced, and it happened very early in my time in Washington, I was in one of our schools, and it was a school that was jointly supported by several parishes. And so the kids came from different communities. And I was standing in line getting ready to have Mass with this group of young people, and I walked over to some of the older kids, seventh and eighth graders, and they were introducing themselves. And you know, one of them said, ‘My name is Keith.’ One (said), ‘My name is Tom.’ (Another said) ‘My name is Jeffrey.’ And one young man gave his name, and one of his classmates said, ‘No, that’s Scooter!,’ and they started laughing. And so I said, ‘Well, you know, nicknames are signs of affection.’ I said, ‘Many people, a lot of people have nicknames, either nicknames at home or among friends, and so that’s his nickname. And it’s a sign of affection.’
“And I said, ‘I have a nickname.’ And they looked, and I said, ‘Yeah, my nickname among my family, my sisters, is Butch. I’ve been Butch in their lives since I … I can’t remember when I wasn’t Butch. And that nicknames are an expression of affection.’
“So having had that little dialogue with them, as I left the parish school or the school community, one of those kids said, ‘Bye, Butch,’ and I thought that was wonderful, because what he did was, he recalled a conversation that a nickname is a sign of affection. And that was his way of reaffirming that.”
Rafael Roncal: “Talking about reading… what kind of book do you embrace?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well, one of the things that I do, probably more than I should, is that I read things online. And it’s a way of keeping up with what’s going on in the world, and the sports activities, and other venues. I probably will continue to do that.
“I like novels. I hope to be able to do some more of that. I hope to spend some more time seeing some of those wonderful movies from my past. Now you can turn on YouTube and watch things that you saw as a young person. “The Wizard of Oz.” “Young Frankenstein” – I’m a great Mel Brooks fan, so I’m going to probably watch a few Mel Brooks movies a second or a third time.”
Listening and learning through synodality
Mark Zimmermann: “You participated in two recent synods in Rome. How do you hope the concept of synodality will impact life for our archdiocese and our parishes and our people? Because you’ve talked about it, I remember when you had the dialogue with the America media podcast about the importance of listening to each other and learning from each other. Synodality is a word that many people don’t understand, but how do you hope that will unfold?”
Cardinal Gregory: “One of the things that happened in my life, and my experience with the two sessions of the Synod, was at those tables. The tables were language groups, and so you were seated with a group of people who were English speakers in my experience, but they came from all over the world. They came from Canada and Africa and the United States and Micronesia, wherever they came (from). And they came with an honest openness about their hopes and their dreams for the Church, and sometimes their disappointments in the Church. And Synodality means to me, (in) my experience, that I can listen to someone, not anticipating how I’m going to respond, but listening so that I can understand, listening so that the other person’s opinion has validity, and that I’m not trying to listen so that I can rebut them.
“Synodality means that I’m listening so that I can appreciate them and maybe learn something. Synodality has the possibility of having people with the openness to learn. I don't know everything. Help me learn a little bit more than I did before I listened to you.”
A time of change
Rafael Roncal: “The first time we interviewed you, we were talking about change, in so many things in your life. And I remember very well, to summarize that, is that change is the only constant that we have in our life. We live in a world that is in constant change, radical change. In that way, taking into consideration, your own experience, what do you foresee in the future, what’s that vision that you have in your mind now?”
Cardinal Gregory: “Well certainly the change that is happening right now, is that I think the Church is realizing in ways that probably it never has been able to realize before, how truly universal we are, how truly catholic we are.
“With the possibilities of social communications, we can see parts of the Church, in areas of the world, that we never would have envisioned before. And that’s part of the change. That’s part of the change, as the eye of the Church continues to open, it sees a world that has great possibilities and challenges.
“To change means I’ve got to learn how to live with things that I had never experienced before. And that kind of change means that I have to change, too. It’s not just things that are outside of me. It’s an opportunity and a responsibility for me to change.”
